Transcript
Fiona Bartholomaeus
Welcome, you're listening to Between our pages, a Premier's Reading Challenge WA podcast.
My name is Fiona Bartholomeus, and together we'll be exploring the wonderful world of books and reading right here in WA.
Today we're chatting with Noongar author and passionate creative Alton Wally about three Noongar Dreamtime storybooks he released last year.
Let's go!
Dreamtime stories are a big part of Aboriginal culture, passing down rules, cultural history and providing educational tools for life.
Three books written by Premier's Reading Challenge ambassador, Alton Walley, are based on some of those stories and are accompanied by beautiful artwork.
Norn and Kaarda, Yonga and Waitch and The Dolphin and the Spear Fisher were originally released in 2019, but were re-released last year.
Alton joins us today to chat about the books.
Thank you so much for joining us on the podcast.
Alton Walley
No worries. Thanks for having me, Fiona.
Lovely to chat.
Fiona Bartholomaeus
So art is very important in your life, whether it's books, culture, dance, or even theatre.
What was the moment that kind of sparked that love for the creative arts?
Alton Walley
I suppose it's just a lot of my teachings growing up.
Culture always gives you those opportunities through storytelling, through music, and I was lucky enough that it was really cultivated in our household.
I suppose I first started telling stories in different ways as a kid. I was doing my traditional dancing when I did my first dance when I was only a couple of years old. I'm not supposed to, jumped up on stage.
So by, I suppose, giving all these different areas and ways of expressing yourself a go, along the way I figured out where my strongest suits were and the ones that some that I still had fun at and, you know, weren't as strong as suits and then some of the areas that I kind of left some of the other members of my family that are really good at it and, you know, kind of handballed it their way.
So, yeah, by being just able to have access to, you know, our dances, some of our music, some of those stories and some fantastic teachers around us, I suppose it was inevitable.
Fiona Bartholomaeus
I was going to say, considering you jumped on stage when you were 3 years old, it sounds like it was always there and always part of, I guess, how you grew up and the place that you grew up.
Alton Walley
Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely.
And even hilariously, the time I jumped up, I believe if I've got the story correct, it was during my dad's, one of his plays when they were doing some of the traditional performance.
So, you know, the arts were already there and, yeah, obviously felt comfortable and felt the need to jump up as well. And they, like I said, they encouraged that, which is fantastic.
So I can't put a price on some of the teachers that have been around and how they've helped my journey.
Fiona Bartholomaeus
And now last year, you re-released 3 of your books. Can you tell us what those books are about?
Alton Walley
Sure. So the 3 stories are stories that I grew up with and they're 3 of about, I think, probably 25 to 30, maybe even 35 plus stories that we have in our family that have been passed down.
We always acknowledge that these are, you know, stories from the Noongar people and different families have different versions of them.
Sometimes, you know, the values and the moral that you're trying to relay changes. Sometimes the character that's the hero becomes the villain in different versions.
So, but essentially these have been passed down for many generations and we always kind of acknowledge and hold on to those core values of these stories as they're passed down. But I was given permission by some of my elders to make sure that, again, I held on to the core of the story, but got a little bit of wiggle room and a bit of space to kind of, you know, share my creative view of it as well.
So the versions that I have and the versions that are down in text, they're similar to how my siblings would tell the stories, but even they have different arcs at times and different ways of expressing the stories for kids. And that's kind of the beauty of it. But again, we take our cultural responsibility and all these protocols very seriously.
We hold them to heart. They're very dear to us.
So we all make sure that we really try to keep the true essence of it alive but appreciate that we're able to have a bit of creative license along the way.
Fiona Bartholomaeus
Yeah, I was going to ask, it must be a little bit challenging interpreting or I guess writing those stories into a book format, a different kind of mode of telling that story.
Alton Walley
Yes and no, I would say.
It made some parts easier just knowing where I needed to get to, having shared them in different ways and having shared them live as well first, because I got to, suppose I got to see the parts where you know particularly kids of this age group got to. You know, they're on the edge of their seats and the moments when they're really engaged and the moments when, you know less so, and you need to kind of add a bit of bit of drama or bring them along on the journey whatever it may be. So I got to, I suppose, I got a bit of live feedback and many years of it in different spaces. So that definitely helped in terms of yeah understanding the story its arc, you know where we need to get to and the points of emphasis along the way but certainly thinking and connecting and making sure I kind of, you know, did right by the culture of my people along the way when I’m you know adding parts to it and you know getting it down on paper, you know that that was always kind of in the back of my mind as well. But yeah the process itself had certainly had its you know, its easy parts, and then certainly had some more difficult areas I had to deal with.
Fiona Bartholomaeus
Yeah, so tell us about those 3 individual books. Can you share a bit about the plot and the story in each one?
Alton Walley
Absolutely.
Well first one, I'll share Yonga and Waitch, and the reason for that is that's quite a prominent story in our family, one that we all share a fair bit.
It's a story that has several values and at the end of these storytelling sessions, whenever I share them, I always ask the kids what they got out of it and there's usually 4 or 5 that are pretty consistent that pop up and those are this being a story about, you know, 2 friends, 2 animals, and one of them, Waitch, essentially has a little bit of jealousy pop up. All the animals admire Yonga the kangaroo and its beautiful coat and Waitch comes up with a bit of a ploy to get that coat for itself.
Along the way there's a bit of, you know, deception and all these sorts of things and, you know, a few games played. And essentially a lot of the kids, when I ask them at the end what you kind of got out of that, it's you know ‘be kind to your friends’, ‘appreciate what you have’. A lot of these kind of beautiful values, you know, that it's lovely that they got it out of them. I don't try to prompt them too much they generally find in that story.
The next one, Norn and Kaarda, this is about the snake and the racehorse Goanna. And it's a story that follows how Norn, the snake, is one of the smallest creatures and very much underappreciated in many ways.
The other animals didn't see Norn as having much value, didn't have the wings of the birds or the big legs and big feasts of the kangaroos and emus or, you know, any of these couldn't fly, all these sorts of things. But using Norn's brain and, you know, being able to outwit and outthink one of the most deadly, dangerous animals in the boodja, in the country, the racehorse goanna. Norn was able to get the venom sack from the big goanna in a way that none of the other larger, bigger animals that could fly and jump and all these sorts of things couldn't achieve in their own way.
So that one's kind of a nice one because a lot of the heroes in the story, they still have their flaws along the way and a lot of the kids pick up on that as well, that you know, they're not perfect either.
But yeah, they get all sorts of ideas from that and again some of these apply to, you know, real life lessons and things like that.
Obviously kids learn about, you know, some snakes now have venom and you need to be wary, some don't along the way. And they learn things like, you know, if you see a snake in the bush, you probably won't see too many other animals around and so a lot of them were based on those teaching methods as well um.
And the last one is the Dolphin and the Spearfisher, and this is a story about 2 siblings that head out. And we have some of our traditional, you know, protocol and rules and most of the time they're in place for safety reasons. And, you know, they don't quite connect with that and they break some of these rules. And in my version, go swimming after dark in places they shouldn't.
And one of them has to essentially save the other one and becomes, well, can't do so on their own and becomes a dolphin in the process. And every year the sibling comes back to visit the dolphins and it talks about their connection with some of the salmon fishing and all sorts of things like that.
So, yeah, 3 kind of beautiful stories. They're stories, like I said, I've heard since I first started hearing stories at all. So they're ones that I just really connect with.
But having said that, I have had a chat with my dad and, you know he doesn't write things down. So he's got all these stories just stored in the memory bank. And he's got, like I said, 25, 30, 35 of these.
So he wants to pass them all down and get them on text for the next generations.
Fiona Bartholomaeus
So why is it so important that these are shared in today's world?
Alton Walley
I think, well firstly, they're a direct connection. Some of the stories, that even the ones that we don't share that are just passed down you know culturally, connect a lot of us back to from an Indigenous perspective you know to your ancestors and their way of doing things, and you know there's a sense of pride I think that comes with that.
But again, that pride isn't just for Indigenous people as well that pride can be across the board because you know we're very fortunate to you know, have one of the oldest living cultures in the world here and you know we can all connect to that in many ways.
So I think being able to share these stories, being able to have our next generation connect with them and connect with them young. I think it's quite a powerful thing because, you know, when you get exposed to some of these stories early on, you know, it's less foreign for you I suppose as you grow up you know, we get to see each other for people and all these sorts of ideas as we grow up.
And the other part, I suppose, is a lot of these value systems and life lessons that come out of it, depending on where you are in your life and what age you are, they can be applicable in many different ways.
So we've just come off Reconciliation Week and I shared a couple of these stories with a room full of adults. And, you know, they still connected with the stories related to them, there were still laughs and these sorts of things along the way. And, you know, a lot of people expressed their enjoyment for them. So they're designed for children but you know, if you're able to tap into them from any age, really, depending on where you are and draw different things from them.
Fiona Bartholomaeus
Yeah, stories are really for everyone, no matter what age range they're geared towards or even what age range of people actually read them.
Alton Walley
Oh, absolutely. Absolutely.
Like I said, couldn't say so more with these stories.
I think they've obviously just come through, our culture has been here for many thousands of years and obviously along the way we're an oral culture so we figured out ways of sharing these stories and ways of getting these, you know, these points across and ways of entertaining.
And a big part of our culture, we always say, is respect and patience and the patient side in particular.
This one, you know, you build respect for the animals and you learn about them along the way. And the patient side of it is huge as well because none of these stories happened overnight you know? They would have been passed down and developed and we would have seen what works with some of the kids and what doesn't. So it's beautiful in that way. Essentially I’m just you know, kind of a modern vessel sharing some of these stories that have been passed down for many many years.
Fiona Bartholomaeus
You mentioned you worked with your dad, Richard Walley. On the book what was that like for you?
Alton Walley
Oh look, we've shared culture and the arts in many different ways for my whole lifetime. He's the one that taught me. He's the one that, again, when I jumped up to dance, you know, he showed me everything. My older sibling showed me, you know, a lot of those steps along the way.
And he taught me these stories in the old way, the way we would, you know share them with you know, nothing more than our voice and with our hands and, you know, essentially a bit of acting along the way and music and all these sorts of things.
So it was fantastic to share this with him. I actually got the story of him on one of the drives out to the country. I believe we were going out to maybe in Albany, along that area, and we just sat in the car and put the voice recorder on and he shared the stories in his way and then again, gave me kind of permission to work with that as well.
So he's obviously done a lot of the artwork, particularly for the Dolphin and the Spearfisher, and my brother did the artwork for the other 2 as well. So it's handy having artists in the family.
I'm not particularly skilled in that area. That's one of the ones I figured out early. I can pull some cartoons and things like that together.
But I've seen their process in terms of how they pull some of this artwork together and yeah, it's something I can't quite, you know, connect all the dots with. So I leave it to them but it's fantastic. I called them up and said ‘hey, can you help me with this?’ and you know, they're family so they helped me.
Fiona Bartholomaeus
Did you have to give much of an outline of what you wanted in terms of the art, like colour or style? Or did you just kind of give your family free reign?
Alton Walley
I kind of gave him a bit of free reign with that because again, both dad shared the stories with us initially and then my older brother, John, he actually would have shared these stories in his own way many years before me being an older sibling. So they had a pretty firm grasp on it.
I gave them a little bit of an idea of the direction I was going with the story but essentially, we really left a lot of it to them and trusted them. I've obviously worked with them in many different spaces and I've seen their artwork for many years. So nothing was really going to be too new and I knew their styles as well.
Dad has a very kind of old style in his way, John has a very bit of a combination of that. And then he's got his kind of fine art style as well.
So yeah, I kind of knew that they would all come together. I've seen it a few times before.
Fiona Bartholomaeus
Now, all 3 of them are absolutely beautiful books and stories. What do you hope young readers take away or learn from your books?
Alton Walley
Oh look, firstly, I hope they are entertaining and as entertaining for them as they have been for me.
It is always an interesting one, like I said, when you've grown up with these stories and you're so connected with them, it was just amazing to be able to share them initially for others to connect with them because, again, I hold them very dear to my heart.
But look, I'd just love for them to, yeah, be able to tap into some of these stories and hopefully while they're entertained by these stories and, you know, hopefully they pick up on some of these values as well, hopefully it also leads to them, you know, wanting to read more stories. And as they grow up wanting to you know, tap into other Indigenous authors and you know, tap into other Indigenous stories, fiction, nonfiction, whatever it may be.
But I think that's a huge part of why I love sharing these stories with particularly kids, you know, when they're at that kind of age where they're really mesmerized by some of the stories and it's fantastic because it sets them up to hopefully appreciate some of the culture as well that we have here.
It really is a beautiful thing.
Fiona Bartholomaeus
I mentioned earlier that these books were originally published in 2019 but were re-released last year. What made you decide to re-release them?
Alton Walley
I think we produced the original ones and then we kind of thought, you know, maybe some of the story and the wording could be adapted for a little bit of a younger age group.
And again, I quite regularly share these stories with between you know, 8 to 10 years old and it does, again, go into other year groups as well. But I think that's kind of a you know, a really solid age group to connect with these particular stories.
So just after a few conversations we realized, you know, perhaps we could adapt it in that way and that process came really easily.
As I mentioned, I really just tapped into how I would share this orally, how I would share this, you know in a classroom, in a space with kids.
And a lot of it really just, you know, came together very quickly. And obviously, still having a lot of this artwork from my brother and my dad available was fantastic, we could still use that and then I added a few of my little pieces in there. Again, not on their level by any means, but I added a few bits of artwork in to have my connection to it as well so that, you know, all our siblings have a bit of a connection.
Fiona Bartholomaeus
So it sounds like it's a little bit of a two-way street with how you go into schools and do public readings and little workshops that not only the students are learning about Aboriginal culture and these stories, but you're taking away a bit for your work too.
Alton Walley
Oh, absolutely. I'm constantly, constantly learning in these spaces and constantly seeing, you know, what people connected to, what worked, what didn't work. And yeah, I think it just kind of, it comes with the territory.
A lot of these storytellings, you know depending on when you get the kids you know, if you get them straight after recess or lunch, sometimes they've had a bit of sugar or whatever it may be, or they've just you know, been running around and you've got to bring them back into this space.
So luckily I was passed on a lot of, again, good teachers, bringing it back to that, passed on a lot of great techniques, you know, to kind of capture their attention, bring them back into the space, back into the room. And I learned how to do that with, you know, many different age groups, you know, and in all sorts of different spaces, thanks to some of those teachings.
So yeah, I think you know, as they always say you know, the day you stop learning, you know?
So I'm always making sure that I continue to learn from the kids as well.
Fiona Bartholomaeus
So, what do you enjoy the most about these public readings in schools and elsewhere with kids?
Alton Walley
Oh, look, I enjoy certainly reconnecting with these stories along the way.
When we do all sorts of cultural presentations, whether it be tours or traditional performance, whatever it may be, I enjoy connecting back to the roots of these stories and I enjoy keeping them really fresh.
Every time I get to share it is every time I get to reconnect with a story that's been passed down from, generation to generation so there's that kind of beautiful part of that but then also again, sharing it with kids and that age group it's fantastic just to see the joy they get from it. At the end of the day I think most of them just see it as a story and they connect with it enjoy it and don't even realize along the way that you know, they are engaging with parts of Noongar culture and they are you know, getting a little bit more exposure to new culture and there's all these kind of subtle learnings they get along the way. But you know, entertainments at the forefront and embedded in there is just all these different values and insight into how, you know, Noongar people, some of the stories may share how we see the world, how we see animals, how we see plants, how we see the countryside, how we interact with each other. And you kind of get to see a lot of that kind of human nature with some of them as well, that we’re all people and these sorts of things as well.
So there's many different kind of areas that I enjoy. I also do enjoy continuing to evolve the stories and my older brother, Ulman, is particularly good at that. You know, I steal a lot of his jokes and all these sorts of things that he's crafted by working with kids. He goes to schools and he's been to schools for, you know, almost a decade before me. So I was fortunate enough to be able to, and he's very happy for us to, you know, share stories amongst each other.
So, yeah, look, there's a lot of joy throughout the whole process.
Fiona Bartholomaeus
And is that what has made you so passionate about sharing Noongar heritage, culture and stories with young readers?
Alton Walley
Absolutely. Absolutely.
There's kind of 2 parts to that.
I'm passionate about it just in terms of education, but I suppose the other side of education is, you know, I've seen, well, firsthand for myself even, how powerful reading is, you know once I tapped into that.
I wasn't a big reader. I'd probably picked up and gone through a couple novels here and there growing up and came in and out. But once I got out of school and once I went to uni and started reading in that other fashion and then started picking up these other books, it just opened up a lot of doors for me in many ways.
I very much did wish that I had jumped into this earlier.
But yeah just being, it just it's just helped me in so many different facets so I’m huge on you know children's literacy, again huge part of why I like to be involved with the with the Readers Challenge every year and why I’m happy to be an ambassador and to you know to travel around and to share in these ways because again, for me it's just been such a such a powerful outlet in in so many different ways not just expression but just you know, day-to-day life.
I run a production company, a film production company as well and you know obviously I have to fill out forms, all these sorts of things.
So there's just countless ways that um you know tapping into reading and being able to express myself and these sorts of things have really helped me and I'd love to see that for a lot of our kids coming through.
Fiona Bartholomaeus
And speaking of your film production company I read that you've consulted and penned various projects in film and tv and theatre what's that process like writing and working on those versus your books and other storytelling?
Alton Walley
Yeah it's a good question really. Well look, I've kind of gone through more formal training for film work essentially you know creating screenplays and the scripts in that sense because there is a format to that, like an accepted format.
So going through that, that was kind of a difficult process initially, having gone through a lot more you know free-form free-flowing writing firsthand. So yeah look it was, it's a process where I suppose I’ve done it for quite a while now and I kind of understand what I need to do and I fall into a nice rhythm with both, but there is certainly a difference between the two and I often try not to have the two cross over too much. I like to kind of focus on one at a time so I can get in the right headspace for both.
But we've done various projects in different areas for film and TV and documentaries and hopefully we've got a few kind of in the works that will be popping up in the next 6, 12 months, next 2 years sort of thing.
Fiona Bartholomaeus
So, yeah. It sounds like you've got a lot on your plate in terms of your film production, your public readings of your books and your writing. Are you working on anything new that you can share with us?
Alton Walley
I am. I am.
So I've been working with UWA Publishing, who's been a big supporter of mine, and we have a new set of books that are coming out so it's the first of a series.
I can say it's called Mika and Miro and it's going to delve into some stories that are set a couple hundred years ago and we're going to you know have, a bit of fun with it really. And again, education is at the core of it all. I’ve embedded a lot of those lessons but it is it's a quite a different format to the traditional Dreamtime stories that I've done so far, but it'll kind of follow a bit of these 2 young siblings' journeys and some of their life lessons that they go through.
I have actually just gone for it with this one and tapped into a bit of digital art and I've produced the illustrations for it with some help along the way as well. And yeah, excited to see how that comes together.
But we're in the final stages, so I can't give an exact timeline at this point, but we're towards the end, that's for sure.
So I'll find out soon when we're going to go live with it.
Fiona Bartholomaeus
Well, we absolutely can't wait until we see your new books out on the shelves for everyone to read and have a look and pick up and take home.
Now, one thing I like to do with all my guests, before I let you go, I'm going to ask you a couple of rapid fire questions. Just want the first answer that pops into your head.
Alton Walley
Sure.
Fiona Bartholomaeus
What is your favourite book?
Alton Walley
My favourite book? That's a brilliant question.
Say my favourite book… I know you said rapid fire, but I need to kind of think this one through.
I think my favourite book would actually be How the Birds Got Their Colours, which is one of my children's books that I connected with.
But look, I read all sorts of different genres, but I think a lot of those kids' books are still very dear to me.
Fiona Bartholomaeus
What are you reading at the moment?
Alton Walley
At the moment, I'm actually reading Dark Emu. I've been picking up that and doing a lot of my kind of educational reading along the way as well.
So yeah, Dark Emu.
Fiona Bartholomaeus
Do you prefer nonfiction or fiction?
Alton Walley
I would say fiction. I would say fiction, but there are moments when I do really enjoy nonfiction.
Fiona Bartholomaeus
What's your favourite genre?
Alton Walley
My favourite genre?
It's actually kind of, at the moment, I'm really into kind of mystery and even a little bit of some scary stories as well along the way.
I don't want to say horror, but you know, some of those kind of thrillerly, scary stories as well.
So definitely yeah, in those 2.
Fiona Bartholomaeus
And in the spirit of the Premier's Reading Challenge, how many books do you hope to read this year?
Alton Walley
This year look, I'm honest, I get pulled in lots of different directions, so I do not get the time to read that I would love to.
If I can get through probably 10 this year, 8 to 10, I'd be pretty happy with that.
So between having a nearly 2-year-old and being pulled in these different directions, yeah, if I can get to that, that would be great.
Fiona Bartholomaeus
You've been listening to Between Our Pages, a Premier's Reading Challenge WA podcast.
Thanks to our guests, Alton Wally, for joining me on this episode.
This episode was recorded on Whadjuk Noongar land. We acknowledge the traditional custodians and pay respects to their elders past, present and emerging.
Stay tuned to your favourite podcast player for future episodes.
Thank you for listening. Happy reading. And we'll see you next time.